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Jul 27, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59
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#141 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New Jersey
Guild: Idiot Savants
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Jul 27, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59
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#142 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
[Your thoughts on the metagame seem to go in the same direction then mine do. But there are a couple good arguments, especially the last one by blackace, that the current state removes options that dont really need to be removed. the question is wether there are other, hidden factors that will force this game down to "broken build vs broken build counter" no matter what.] |
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Jul 27, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12
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#143 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Pasadena, California
Profession: Mo/
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I think this forum would be much more amusing if it kept the little snippets for deleted posts, so you can have amusing runs of everything being deleted, as you might see in the sister thread on another GW fansite.
Honestly, though, I think the entire alpha process needs to be assessed if we still have these current imbalances. The devs can't possibly be unaware of the gross imbalances currently present, so why don't they do anything? It's been months – surely more than enough time to tweak enough numbers to create a new, more balanced environment, and even if it hasn't, a halfway fix would be better than none. Clearly, systemic changes to a number of skills need to go in, and I think the majority of the community would be happy enough just to see progress toward changes, even if it takes multiple update cycles to finally arrive at a properly balanced result. Strictly speaking, powerful symmetric effects such as NR do not create a degenerate metagame for reasons I described above (much less so than powerful normal effects such as Putrid, anyway), but the real problem with NR really is that it's just no fun, in the same manner that even now, Fertile Season and a heavily defensive build can create matches that are boring stalemates. I honestly see that effect as a more severe flaw to NR than its actual power level. Again, there's minimal real harm in a skill being pervasive if it doesn't cause a degenerate metagame (and symmetric skills really can't do that, because if one dominates, there must exist some level of tweaking a build for the mirror such that the tweaked anti-mirror build loses to other builds) – to use an analogy I brought up earlier, every deck in T1 Magic that can do so runs Force of Will and to a great extent this defines the flow of play in T1, but this is hardly taken as a sign of imbalance. The only substantial difference between FoW and NR is that NR is seen to make the environment less fun. It's in the nature of powerful symmetric effects that they pretty much do have to be powerful enough to define a game so they can be at the same powerful level as normal effects, but it seems like their presence in the form of nature rituals as they currently are is an intentional consequence of design, not an accidental imbalance. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30
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#144 |
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Smite Mistress
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Land of AZ, USA
Profession: Rt/E
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Taion, all posts that are removed are 'soft deleted' insomuch as they are viewable by the admins and mods. None of them are hard deleted. But trust me when I say that NOTHING is deleted that pertains or is germaine to the conversation. Most of what goes away is spam or flame bait.
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Jul 27, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51
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#145 | |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Jul 27, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22
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#146 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Mar 2005
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146 skills become nearly or completely useless when NR hits the floor - clearly something is wrong.
Seriously...1 skill makes 146 skills unusable...globally. As for Ethereal Renewal: If anyone says that it isn't overpowered, then they haven't seen the sheer power of 15 pips of energy regeneration, or considerably more if you want to really get it going. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34
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#147 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Pasadena, California
Profession: Mo/
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There are actually top 10 guilds out there that run NR and significant numbers of hexes. Yes, NR is probably overpowered, but it helps nobody to overstate the case against it.
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Jul 27, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55
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#148 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Using NR as a whole punch is viable, not using it until necessary. The point: Now every new team build coming up is doing so under the umbrella of 1 skill - that is not an overstatement, but the truth.
Last edited by goku19123; Jul 27, 2005 at 08:58 PM // 20:58.. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18
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#149 | |||||
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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Quote:
Putrid also has the interesting side effect of randomly winning dais maps singlehandedly, as well as savagely owning any team that happens to bunch up. How do you fight Putrid? Well, one solution is to stick a Mesmer on their Necromancer and keep him under a Diversion lock at all times - energy denial doesn't do anything as Soul Reaping powers Putrid Explosion singlehandedly. That'll shut down the game winning chains. Blackout can effectively neutralize Putrid as well. So you can stick a Mesmer on a Putrid Necro, if you think that's a worthwhile investment of a character slot. The other solution is to exploit the corpses before the other Necro can, so that their Putrids find no targets. The only skill in the game that's faster than Putrid Explosion at exploiting corpses is Necrotic Traversal, by a whole 1/4 of a second per cast. Now if you don't want to run that, your best option for cleaning up corpses is...Putrid Explosion. As dedicating a character slot, your Mesmer, simply to shutting down a Necromancer, who's most dangerous duty only matters once people start dying, is simply unreasonable much of the time, is it really surprising that the most popular solution to Putrid Explosion is 'mash on the button faster than them'? Just like Nature's Renewal, you start thinking of ways to counter the skill and you end up running it yourself. Though Putrid is a more ridiculous example as it's simply one skill slot, and the 'skill' involved is mashing buttons. Quote:
It's really easy to miss what the real problem is when there's so much else going on. Just look at "Air Gank" - the vast majority of teams thought, and still think, that Air Gank was just spammed air skills, and that this was unfair. It isn't. The unfair bit was coordinated Chain Lightning + enchantment removal. That's it. Every air spike team that didn't do that fundamentally didn't understand the build. Quote:
When it comes to skill balancing, though, I trust that Izzy knows what he's doing. He has made some baffling moves in the past (buffing Ether Renewal and Energy Drain, for starters), but in general I get the feeling that he knows what's broken with the game's balance and how he wants to fix it, but that he simply has his hands tied by corporate policy. Do I trust that if balance changes were to be made, they would be a net change in the right direction? Definitely. Do I trust Arena.net to create a sane game balance policy? Well, look at their track record and tell me. Quote:
Quote:
Peace, -CxE
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. |
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Jul 27, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44
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#150 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Jul 28, 2005, 05:24 AM // 05:24
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#151 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2005
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While I have problems with the power of Nature's Renewal and definitely feel it needs examining, some of the hyberbole on here should be scaled back. Nature's Renewal does not completely hose ALL enchantments and hexes (yes, it does remove them all, but it does not hose all strategies involving all hexes and all enchantments). Many (if not most) enchantments and most hexes have a very short duration to work with anyway. Many enchantments and hexes can still be used to good effect even if the opposing team is using NR, and can easily be used if your own team is using NR.
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Jul 28, 2005, 05:32 AM // 05:32
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#152 |
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Guest
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What enchantments? Besides the fast acting/low duration Monk enchantments like rof, guardian and some others who else gets benefits from enchantments when NR is in play?
Necros? nope. Their entire curse line with the exception of Defile Flesh, Shadow of Fear and EB/Enfeeble go to hell. Eles? energy management goes to hell Mesmers? They dont have many enchantments, and even something like Symp Visage becomes sketchy. There are very few hexes anyone is willing to try and pound through NR. Diversion is one of the few. |
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Jul 28, 2005, 05:47 AM // 05:47
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#153 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Posting this idea to balance NR for the third time as no one has commented on it
I think NR should be made so that it strips the enchants/hexes at the end of its life not the beginning. And the strip only happens if NR's time runs out not if it is killed by the other team. This would make it a minimum of 30 seconds before the stripping happens and give the other team a chance to stop the strip from happening. Also leave NR as a non-elite if this happens. Allow it to be spammed with oathshot but so long as the other team kills the spirit no stripping occurs. Also this should be combined with Fertil Season being made so that it only buffs spirits by 50% of it's stated effect (If it says +400 health a spirit only gains 200 health). |
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Jul 28, 2005, 05:51 AM // 05:51
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#154 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2005
Guild: -None-
Profession: R/Me
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Quote:
And all the talk of making NR an elite to solve the problem is nonsense. I can use NR as easily with QZ-SQ as I do with Oath Shot. I nowadays even hate playing with my ranger, because its gotten so mechanical and boring with NR-Oath Shot. Wheres the thrill of dynamically adapting to your oponent's play. I created my R/Me three months back to be a good ol' anti-caster/healer, not be a bot spamming NR all over the place. |
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Jul 28, 2005, 06:14 AM // 06:14
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#155 | ||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: Dark Horizons
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Quote:
 It would probably take a bunch more code to make it set off by the timer runs out since everything else in this game gets set off by removal (killed in this case).edit: Quote:
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Jul 28, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42
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#156 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
As for having to run the attribute basing backwards you wouldn't really half to because if a person is willing to trade off all of the skills linked to WS to use this with the shortest cast time than fine by me. The ranger becomes weaker to compensate for the full enchant strip every 30 seconds that he can lay (or faster as Oath Shot would still be allowed so you could get it to like a strip every 10-15 seconds with only 1 person). This also adds more skill to the game because you have to plan ahead to make this skill work (Like know that the enchant stripping is coming in say 45 seconds and then have someone prepared to drop Frozen Soil so that it starts right as NR ends. Then have the rest of the team all gank 1 target. Now redrop NR after you reapply the enchants that you had your monk(s) start casting right as NR ended so that the enchant satarts and you have all of yours until the next strip and your team can still keep Frozen Soil active and you repaet the whole sequence). You also have to figure out how to weigh the enchant strip vs. the other uses of your WS skills. This would still leave lots of room to play VERY potent builds with NR with an organized team but it ends it as a FoTM build (Hell I alredy have 2 planned if this was implamented). |
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Jul 28, 2005, 06:51 AM // 06:51
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#157 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Beyond the Shiver Peaks in the Ring of Fire
Guild: NKM
Profession: Rt/
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I know I am probolyl going to get my butt chewed by spammers or trolls but in the hopes of being helpful say what I am going to say.
As you all know way back in the beta the skill that was the butt of every joke when its name was mentioned. I think that this skill if brought back (was removed and if you played in the beta your probolly know what skill im going to say) that it might actually help with this problem. This skill is "Unnatural Signet" sure it would need to be tweeked to fit in the spirit system but if they did reintroduce it maybe just maybe it would balance out the issues going around with NR, FS, what ever spirit spaming is going on. For those you that never seen or heard of the skill before ill give a description of what it was (please note this was way before the whole spirit system when rituals were global and as I said it would need some major fine tuning but it could be a possible solution). Remove the most recent nature ritual. All of your skills are disabled for 60-36 seconds. Casting cost: 0 Casting time: 15 sec Recharge time: 75 sec Relevant attribute: Illusion Magic Some suggestions if this skill was introduced would be to end the nearest Spirit, a much faster recharge time, lower the skills disabled to maybe 10-5 seconds, and drasitcially lower the casting time. These are just some ideas for this particular skill in helping solving the delema that seems to be going on. Also pardon any spelling mistakes you may find as I am a very bad typist ^_^. -=MachineKing=- |
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Jul 28, 2005, 06:55 AM // 06:55
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#158 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jun 2005
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^^
Wouldn't solve NR as it's most potent threat is as soon as it's dropped. |
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Jul 28, 2005, 06:57 AM // 06:57
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#159 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2005
Guild: -None-
Profession: R/Me
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Quote:
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Jul 28, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54
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#160 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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Never suggest a way to nerf something is to slap an elite tag on it. Seriously that's just a half-assed bandaid that does nothing good for the game.
If a skill should be buffed or nerfed it should be done via effect, cost, cast time, or recharge, not by putting in something which really shouldn't exist in the first place. |
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